[Waxwings]

Twin Galaxies was a good, reliable organization for video games back when it was still in the arcades: there, their methods made sense, as they could affirm the reliability of whatever arcade they came across as it was.

As gaming branched out into consoles and the industry became even more decentralized, it's really almost criminal to see Twin Galaxies not taking advantage of new media: the old system doesn't work over a worldwide level, and the Internet is staring them in the face with a solution.

But anyway, that's not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm more directed at what Alondite said,

funny...because allowing glitches really makes it hard to see who is "the best" considering that it generally involves less skill than running through the level at record pace.

It's not so much that it takes less skill so much as it takes less effort to get a good time. Assuming everyone used this glitch (and it didn't totally wreck competition to bits) the rankings would be more or less the same as they are now, although with smaller variation between the times: the issue is that relatively few members of TSC are still competing, and the few who do are thus able to scour up new glitches and get better times than those who hadn't bothered to compete.

Glitches put competition on a different level, particularly some of the bigger skips (look at how easy it is to stratify SO1T into "glitch" and "non-glitch") and often encourage people to play through levels again, even if a large portion is cut out. There's no denying that it does pep up TSC.

[Aitamen]

Better points that ours, as it doesn't rely on morality...

The Sand1T horizontal wrap caused a great number of people to refine said level, and much like Rolk's HT-lava-plat or the carretero's (sorry if I spelled it wrong) SB3-ramp, it caused a surge of activity on that level...

[Stefan]

There are tons of problems with banning "unnatural techniques". A couple big ones:
a.) it is almost impossible to distinguish between intended and unintended game mechanics. Was a spindash jump in 3d sonic intended? I'm not sure they designed the spindash for extended jump length.

b.) some things that are acceptable clearly weren't intended by game developers

loop jumping was not intended; if it was, you wouldn't die from a loopjump in GREEN HILL ZONE 1. That's pretty obvious the side effect of an unintended result of the game's physics engine.

Hell, shortcuts weren't intended by the game developers. Skipping things means bypassing something you were supposed to do in the first place. That is the epitome of defying intent.

c.) unnatural techniques add depth to gameplay. Rather than boring people, they show people that there is a wide array of techniques to be utilized in the competitive world, ranging from wall zips to massive shortcuts. and that's pretty awesome.

[Aitamen]

I thought you were my opposition, Stef?  Not complaining, I had just thought you on the other side of the coin.

Good note about the loop jump (which is what I extended into slope-jumping... it's not built to do what it does... you aren't supposed to get on the 2nd tier after the loop via loopjump -> slope jump, you're supposed to go over the platforms prior to said loop)

Regardless of all this, I am still amazed and enthralled by people who do annihilate levels as you speak of... just because I consider most of EC to be "cheating" the game does NOT mean that I doubt any ability of Jawzun in said game...  I whole-heartedly hope, because of my FZFA bit, that he finally breaks that 1-min barrier!

Comments on TG: about 95% of their runs are "full legit"... for example, I was disallowed from using the under-the-oil bit in S2, and as such, refused to run for them...

however, I do not see that as cheating in the least...

and their staff should not be allowed to compete, with a few exceptions...

[Alondite]

I don't see loop-jumping or spindash-jumping as glitching.  They are merely using intended gameplay mechanics in unintended ways.  I call zipping through a wall a glitch.  The developers put in loops, and the ability to jump, so combining the two is no glitch.  They did not however, purposely put int he ability to break the game code and zip through a wall/floor.  That is what distinguishes glitch from not. 

As long as glitching is still allowed, I will probably never compete at TSC again.  Spaceflying ruined GX competition for me, and now it's happening again.  It also ruined Melee for me.  It's getting to the point where Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth on FD is the entirety of the competitive scene, and it just sucks every ounce of variety out of the game, so it gets stale. 

Excitebike 64 IMO is a fantastic game to compete in (if only it were more popular...) because there, even now, are virtually no known glitches.  It's 100% about mastery of game mechanics and course lines, and it's much more enjoyable to compete it because you don't have to worry about breaking the game to be competitive.  IMO breaking the game ruins it's playability to the point where it's not even enjoyable anymore. 

For example, Metroid Prime has become far more enjoyable to play again since I stopped SBing it.  The game design in that game is nothing short of spectacular, and you can't fully enjoy it by glitching, which is practically a sin given how great that game is.  Breaking the game to get a fast time and skipping large sections of the game just. as I said before, spits in the face of the developer, Retro Studios in this case, and their phenomenal work. 

SBing ruined Metroid Prime 2, because Retro attempted to prevent SBing through certain design choices, and those design choices ended up tarnishing the overall design of the game.  It just wasn't as good as the first game.

Anyway that's just what I think, but whatever, it's not like it even matters in the grand scheme of TSC.

[Stefan]

Alondite, while the game developers did not put in, intentionally, the ability to zip through a wall, they did put in both walls and moving platforms. Almost every wall zip is a combination of the two, at least in sonic 1. Who's to say it's not an unintended consequence of two intended mechanics? While I think wall zipping is glitching, your logic can turn almost any glitch into an "ok" mechanic.

The concept of playing naturally is to play the game exactly as it was intended. To me, that means nothing that was unintended, including shortcuts or consequences of the physics engine. And we both agree that is a ridiculous type of competition.

I agree, games are often a lot more fun when you play them throughout. However, most metroid prime players didn't play the game to sequence break the first time through. Only when one wants to achieve a high level of skill does a player sequence break. The game is only broken at high levels of play where it's desirable to do so. Competition is about being the best, and that means exploiting anything unintended that still depends on the skill of the player.

This would be a great opportunity to point out that you are -still able- to submit your times that do not use glitches. And you can have personal pride in the fact that you don'[t use those glitches. That is allowed here. We don't require that you exploit every inch of a game to compete. And if that's the way you want to compete, naturally, then go for it. Nobody will stop you!

[Aitamen]

EB64 can be broken via a controller with an extended range joystick...  which, interestingly enough, is competition legal

I personally consider that cheating as it cannot be done on an official console with official controllers, but whatever...

I do consider it a noble goal to play without glitches, and if you're interested, I'd fully like to compete with you one your grounds (to help you push yourself harder and to prove myself to you)

Also, it wasn't intended to be able to gain speed by hitting a slope... the ORIGINAL INTENT of that was so that you can't backtrack up slopes, or so that when you jump on them (from that lower position) you get thrown backwards...

The interactions with the wall are, as I said, intended physics, but when you can get inside the wall, they work for you instead of against you.

Also, in S2B, they did look at fixing all possibility of zipping by making you bounce off a wall when you hit it... however, they saw that this detracted from the game too much.

Regardless, you're saying that how the glitch comes about has nothing to do with whether you deem it a glitch or not... you base it off the effects, which would also be fair if it wasn't subjective...

As stef said, if I use your logic, all glitches are based off intended physics being abused in unintentional ways...

I remember when I first came to TSC I saw the S2 run of OO1 and I thought "That's cheating!!"... I realized later that it's just because the game was programmed poorly that these things were possible...

If you think of it as spitting in the face of the developer, so is speedrunning in all it's forms...  walk through S2 and tell me it's not beautiful... or go listen to the music in levels all over the place...  some is serene, some is upbeat...  to only listen to the first X seconds of those tracks is kinda sinful...

But we're not an artistic appreciation group nor a musical appreciation group...  we're speedrunners...

pro competition (for cash) usually doesn't bar any tactics... I would write more, but my gf is wanting to watch some stupid fucking WoW video...

off for now... ^_^

[Selphos]

It's during posts like these where I notice how much Aita uses ellipses >_>

I don't really have two cents to add to this, save for I support mike's original idea.

[Parax]

Whether or not abusing glitches is fun is a matter of opinion. Personally, I have fun doing that sort of thing, and I like competing with them. Glitches open up a whole new world of what's possible within a game, what can be done with it, and I like seeing what I can do. The whole point about whether you're playing through and enjoying a level is stupid. There's no reason to expect to be able to get the full experience of the game when you're trying to focus on finding the fastest routes and getting the best times. Metroid Prime has and is one of my favorite games of all time, and not only would I say sequence breaking doesn't detract from that, it's most of the reason why I like it so much. The breaks make it so much less linear to the point where you can do whatever you want at almost any point in the game, going as fast or as slow as you want.

Like Stef said, if you really hate abusing glitches so much, you don't have to. You're allowed to submit the times you get without glitching, just like I'm allowed to TA the levels the way I like to: figuring out where and how to save time and optimizing it into a solid run.

If you really want to make competition into exactly the way you're intended to play the levels, then I wouldn't compete anymore. Competition is about pushing the game to its limits, not about enjoying the game. In competition, with higher knowledge of whatever you're competing in comes advantages, and there's no reason it shouldn't be the same for Sonic. Don't think it's fun? Tough. Whenever you start doing ANYTHING on a high level, it stops being fun, because you aren't playing for fun anymore. You're playing to push yourself to do as well as you can, and that's not always fun.

[Azure]

Whether or not abusing glitches is fun is a matter of opinion. Personally, I have fun doing that sort of thing, and I like competing with them.

Isn't competing in SA all about abusing glitches? I love that game, but that's pretty much all there is to it...

[Selphos]

SM will be put out of a job if SA2 can no longer be glitched!

* Pidgey runs

[Aitamen]

First off, I don't use ellipses, I use ellipsis... the former is not a grammar tool, it's an oval

I'd like to note that I use ellipsis whenever I finish writing a thought and I pause to think of whatever I'm saying next, as it's more of an idle animation now than it is a part of my grammar...

Whenever you start doing ANYTHING on a high level, it stops being fun, because you aren't playing for fun anymore. You're playing to push yourself to do as well as you can, and that's not always fun.

This statement is something I've said over and over again, but could never find the words for...

The payoff, however, is a fantastic feeling ^_^